MN asks: So what do you do if you can't find anything? If everything has been filled or you can't afford to go 1000 away from where you are now and it's too late for summer school?
For the sake of having a gender for pronoun purposes, I'm making MN a guy. I am guessing he is taking about summer jobs, though he doesn't indicate if its 1L or 2L summer. He posted the question July 1, which is really late. I would respectfully suggest that not everything has been filled. Just everything that might pay him a salary.
If its 1L summer and you don't have anything legal, it is not the worst thing ever. I know many people who didn't do legal work last summer. It made interviews more difficult in the fall, but you know, if you have to wait tables to pay the bills, then that's what you have to do. I still think there is a way to work some legal work if you don't have other demands on your time (like a kid.)
Have you contacted solo or small practitioners and volunteer to do 10 hours of legal research and writing a week in exchange for a reference and the chance to sit in on hearings etc.? Even if its a plaintiff's lawyer and you want to do defense work, you will learn something and have the chance to network. Have you contacted local non-profits to see if they or their counsel need a student volunteer? Similar reason.
Does it suck to work for free? You bet.
But it pays off in experience and something to talk about that will hopefully lead to the job you want.
Any others have advice?
Tuesday, July 01, 2008
Monday, May 19, 2008
Waiting for grades
... is one of the worst things about law school.
Open thread -- feel free to vent about waiting for grades, rankings, etc.
Open thread -- feel free to vent about waiting for grades, rankings, etc.
Sunday, April 20, 2008
Reason I love law school #1
Professor Transparent:
"We’re going to read this case even though its mostly no longer good law, because its great. It would be like if the Supreme Court overruled Macbeth. It would still be worth reading."
"We’re going to read this case even though its mostly no longer good law, because its great. It would be like if the Supreme Court overruled Macbeth. It would still be worth reading."
Monday, April 14, 2008
On a positive note
I don't like that "negative" material is the top post of this blog right now.
Because I enjoy law school.
I love how it has changed the way I approach problem solving.
I love that it is been as intellectually stimulating as I had hoped.
I love writing exams. I do. When I am well prepared, exams are fun.
(Its the being well prepared part that's getting to me now.)
Because I enjoy law school.
I love how it has changed the way I approach problem solving.
I love that it is been as intellectually stimulating as I had hoped.
I love writing exams. I do. When I am well prepared, exams are fun.
(Its the being well prepared part that's getting to me now.)
Monday, April 07, 2008
On dashing dreams
I was working an admitted students event this weekend.
Preface: I made the choices I made for law school for my reasons. I don't care (much) about prestige or rankings and it won't matter (much) in the work I want. But let us be blunt. Forgetting the US News and the Rankings debate, we can all agree there are the top schools, the also rans, and the rest. We can quibble over the details on the edges of those categories, but the school I chose is squarely among "the rest."
There were two people there that had such a skewed view of reality that I wanted to smack them upside the head.
One was a man who was about to uproot his family and school-aged children and move halfway across the country to come to my school. He was changing careers because, and I quote, he wanted one of those BigLaw jobs in Not-Very-Nearby Market with the $160k starting salaries.
Another wanted to go into legal academia, but admitted he didn't do well enough on the LSATs to get into the schools that would more likely get him into those doors. Still, he said, he really thinks he can do it because his mind totally works on that theoretical level and he's not interested at all in the practical aspects of practicing law.
To the first I wanted to say this:
What the hell kind of mid-life crisis is this? And if you're seriously going through with this, why would you put your family through this on the 1 in 10,000 chance you will actually land one of those BigLaw jobs coming from a non-prestigious school? I mean, if your scores put you in this tier and you really have no other options, at least go to the similarly ranked school IN YOUR TARGET MARKET. In short, sir, it would be cheaper for your family if you just went ahead and bought the convertible.
To the second I wanted to say this:
Dooode! You're like 19 years old. You don't want to graduate college and go into the work force. Law school seems like a good plan. You really think you'll be #1 in the class and still do keg stands on the weekend. (Note: I am serious. He talked about keg stands.) I get it. If you're sincere about this being your life's ambition though, Dooode, take a year off, study your ass off for the LSATs, and try again. Cuz if you're not willing to do that, Dooode, the legal academics and you won't ever get along.
Instead, I bit my tongue and remembered that these people are grown-ups and free to make whatever decision they think will make them happiest. If you recognize yourself, its not too late.
Preface: I made the choices I made for law school for my reasons. I don't care (much) about prestige or rankings and it won't matter (much) in the work I want. But let us be blunt. Forgetting the US News and the Rankings debate, we can all agree there are the top schools, the also rans, and the rest. We can quibble over the details on the edges of those categories, but the school I chose is squarely among "the rest."
There were two people there that had such a skewed view of reality that I wanted to smack them upside the head.
One was a man who was about to uproot his family and school-aged children and move halfway across the country to come to my school. He was changing careers because, and I quote, he wanted one of those BigLaw jobs in Not-Very-Nearby Market with the $160k starting salaries.
Another wanted to go into legal academia, but admitted he didn't do well enough on the LSATs to get into the schools that would more likely get him into those doors. Still, he said, he really thinks he can do it because his mind totally works on that theoretical level and he's not interested at all in the practical aspects of practicing law.
To the first I wanted to say this:
What the hell kind of mid-life crisis is this? And if you're seriously going through with this, why would you put your family through this on the 1 in 10,000 chance you will actually land one of those BigLaw jobs coming from a non-prestigious school? I mean, if your scores put you in this tier and you really have no other options, at least go to the similarly ranked school IN YOUR TARGET MARKET. In short, sir, it would be cheaper for your family if you just went ahead and bought the convertible.
To the second I wanted to say this:
Dooode! You're like 19 years old. You don't want to graduate college and go into the work force. Law school seems like a good plan. You really think you'll be #1 in the class and still do keg stands on the weekend. (Note: I am serious. He talked about keg stands.) I get it. If you're sincere about this being your life's ambition though, Dooode, take a year off, study your ass off for the LSATs, and try again. Cuz if you're not willing to do that, Dooode, the legal academics and you won't ever get along.
Instead, I bit my tongue and remembered that these people are grown-ups and free to make whatever decision they think will make them happiest. If you recognize yourself, its not too late.
Thursday, March 27, 2008
The $$ Shell Game
Life the Universe and Everything asks: Appropriate question??What percentage of your applicants receive scholarship offers. I'm curious here because at the school I'll be visiting, you have to be in the top 25% to retain your scholarship. Top 26% gets you bupkiss. So if say 50% of applicants walk in with $$$, that tells me they're trying to attract students with higher numbers, and plan on screwing them once they're in the door. Obviously in that scenario, half the folks would lose their scholarships. Is this an appropriate/hot button question to ask? I would also want to know how the sections are allocated. I've heard of school stacking a particular section with scholarship students to make it next to impossible to be in the top percent of the class.
This started as a comment in the last post, but got long. See the comments of that post for Useless Dicta's take.
The first question is absolutely a question you should be asking. You may not get the whole truth on the answer but how they handle it might tell you a lot. My school screwed so many people that was it wasn't even funny. I emerged unscathed with my scholarship in tact, but I was one of the few.
Also, if your numbers are *much* better than the school average and you have other reasons for choosing the school besides scholarship money, I would absolutely negotiate, though not at admitted students weekend of course. Applications are down across the board this year. Leverage that knowledge if you can.
Example, you're offerred full tuition if you maintain top 25%. Ask for that if you maintain top 50% instead, or 3/4 tuition for top 50%. A friend of mine really did that -- she said "thanks, but I can do better at the the cheaper higher ranked state school" and talked her way to a better deal. Took balls and a good back up plan -- she had a good BATNA (best alternative to negotiated agreement), acceptance at a higher ranked cheaper school that she would be happy enough going to. It was worth it for her. Might work for you if you've got the #'s, a good back up plan, and good reasons why the lower ranked school is otherwise attractive.
I would NOT ask about the section stacking -- they won't own up to that and anything you get from the students will be based on hearsay and conjecture.
I would ask about the curve. Is it a B- median? Or a B- mean? The latter could mean wider distribution and greater chance that if you do land below the curve in one class, it will kill your chance at keeping a scholarship.
Also at my school, 26%-50% still get money, but much much less. Make sure you really get "bupkiss."
But I *would* ask how many people receive scholarships in relation to the rank they have to achieve. And what is the NUMBER of people that you're ranked typically against . . . if there are only 75 full time students, #19 in the class is out of luck.
Good luck.
This started as a comment in the last post, but got long. See the comments of that post for Useless Dicta's take.
The first question is absolutely a question you should be asking. You may not get the whole truth on the answer but how they handle it might tell you a lot. My school screwed so many people that was it wasn't even funny. I emerged unscathed with my scholarship in tact, but I was one of the few.
Also, if your numbers are *much* better than the school average and you have other reasons for choosing the school besides scholarship money, I would absolutely negotiate, though not at admitted students weekend of course. Applications are down across the board this year. Leverage that knowledge if you can.
Example, you're offerred full tuition if you maintain top 25%. Ask for that if you maintain top 50% instead, or 3/4 tuition for top 50%. A friend of mine really did that -- she said "thanks, but I can do better at the the cheaper higher ranked state school" and talked her way to a better deal. Took balls and a good back up plan -- she had a good BATNA (best alternative to negotiated agreement), acceptance at a higher ranked cheaper school that she would be happy enough going to. It was worth it for her. Might work for you if you've got the #'s, a good back up plan, and good reasons why the lower ranked school is otherwise attractive.
I would NOT ask about the section stacking -- they won't own up to that and anything you get from the students will be based on hearsay and conjecture.
I would ask about the curve. Is it a B- median? Or a B- mean? The latter could mean wider distribution and greater chance that if you do land below the curve in one class, it will kill your chance at keeping a scholarship.
Also at my school, 26%-50% still get money, but much much less. Make sure you really get "bupkiss."
But I *would* ask how many people receive scholarships in relation to the rank they have to achieve. And what is the NUMBER of people that you're ranked typically against . . . if there are only 75 full time students, #19 in the class is out of luck.
Good luck.
Tuesday, March 18, 2008
Admitted students weekend
Life, the universe, and everything asks: I just received my class assignment for my admitted students weekend. I am scheduled to sit in on a constitutional law class. Can anyone enlighten me about this sort of law? The only thing I know of it is Susan Estrich's opinion that it spoils every law student because everyone wants to practice it, but almost no one gets to. What should I expect?
Just so you know, I am only answering this question because the asker quoted Douglas Adams and I look for any excuse to quote Douglas Adams. Even Administrative Law.
More generally, admitted students weekends are like a big happy open house. They trot out all the law students who actually like it there and have them gush about why they chose this law school over all others, why law school is not really as bad as you've heard, and why its exactly as bad as you've heard, but just not so bad at their school. I should know: I am one of the students my law school trots out, because I am generally very positive about it. Though I am honest with the prospectives. Feel free to ask the "hard questions." You might even get some straight answers, but remember the overall purpose of admitted students weekend is to get you to choose that law school over the others at which you were accepted. Sit back and enjoy the sales presentation, and look for indicators that the place really is the right fit for you.
In your case, you know for sure you'll be sitting on a mock class. (I assume that its not an actual Con Law class occurring on a weekend.) You may even get a case or two to read in advance of the class to get a "feel" for the Socratic method. Don't be fooled: the real deal will be a lot more intimidating, for the first few weeks of law school at least. The prof at your admitted students weekend will probably take volunteers, not cold-call on people, and eager almost-1Ls will probably actually volunteer. Again, I don't discourage this as it can be fun. Just don't expect it to reflect the real thing.
As to what the prof will actually cover, I have no idea. At my school during our admitted student weekend, we read a famous English criminal law case that involved men lost at sea in a life boat and cannibalism. (Click here to read it if you like.) So based on my experience, expect something fun and somewhat controversial in order to generate a lively discussion, but not like "hot button" controversial.
As to the Susan Estrich comment: "Con Law" touches nearly everything in the law . . . I'd say everything without the 'nearly,' but law school has made me wary of such definitive statements. What she probably means is people want to practice the sexy areas like free speech, and its true; most people will not get to argue a free speech case before a Circuit court, let alone before the Supremes. That doesn't mean you don't get to do due process, equal protection, and commerce clause arguments. My Family Law and Labor Law classes, for example, have just been Con Law with a focus.
(All right, enough. I have to go read for Admin class, otherwise known as "What Would Scalia Do.")
Just so you know, I am only answering this question because the asker quoted Douglas Adams and I look for any excuse to quote Douglas Adams. Even Administrative Law.
More generally, admitted students weekends are like a big happy open house. They trot out all the law students who actually like it there and have them gush about why they chose this law school over all others, why law school is not really as bad as you've heard, and why its exactly as bad as you've heard, but just not so bad at their school. I should know: I am one of the students my law school trots out, because I am generally very positive about it. Though I am honest with the prospectives. Feel free to ask the "hard questions." You might even get some straight answers, but remember the overall purpose of admitted students weekend is to get you to choose that law school over the others at which you were accepted. Sit back and enjoy the sales presentation, and look for indicators that the place really is the right fit for you.
In your case, you know for sure you'll be sitting on a mock class. (I assume that its not an actual Con Law class occurring on a weekend.) You may even get a case or two to read in advance of the class to get a "feel" for the Socratic method. Don't be fooled: the real deal will be a lot more intimidating, for the first few weeks of law school at least. The prof at your admitted students weekend will probably take volunteers, not cold-call on people, and eager almost-1Ls will probably actually volunteer. Again, I don't discourage this as it can be fun. Just don't expect it to reflect the real thing.
As to what the prof will actually cover, I have no idea. At my school during our admitted student weekend, we read a famous English criminal law case that involved men lost at sea in a life boat and cannibalism. (Click here to read it if you like.) So based on my experience, expect something fun and somewhat controversial in order to generate a lively discussion, but not like "hot button" controversial.
As to the Susan Estrich comment: "Con Law" touches nearly everything in the law . . . I'd say everything without the 'nearly,' but law school has made me wary of such definitive statements. What she probably means is people want to practice the sexy areas like free speech, and its true; most people will not get to argue a free speech case before a Circuit court, let alone before the Supremes. That doesn't mean you don't get to do due process, equal protection, and commerce clause arguments. My Family Law and Labor Law classes, for example, have just been Con Law with a focus.
(All right, enough. I have to go read for Admin class, otherwise known as "What Would Scalia Do.")
Monday, March 10, 2008
a potpourri of pre-L advice
alright, i see a bunch of different topics in the questions thread, so i'm going to address what i can.
the summer before law school
as far as the summer before law school, Butterflyfish is correct--you don't need a law job the summer before law school. in fact, it's probably better not to have a law job that summer, because all you'll be doing in law school is law. take a break from it, since you'll be doing law all year from there on out, between law school and summer jobs in legal workplaces. the summer before law school i worked the same two jobs i'd been doing through my year off after undergrad. i was working part-time barcoding books in a library, and i was working full-time waitressing. the barcoding job was mind-numbing, and i hated it, but i needed the money and it was an easy job at a library i had been working in since my second year of undergrad. the waitressing was much better...it was something i knew i'd never be able to try again, and something i had always wanted to try once. that's my suggestion...if there's some kind of summer job you can do for a short period of time before you start law school, something you've never done and always wanted to try, do it. it doesn't have to be anything taxing or academic...specifically, it's probably better for it not to be, so you can come to law school as relaxed and clear-headed as possible.
on coming back to school, after working
to the person who was wondering what it would be like to be working and then coming back to law school--don't worry about the college kids being ahead of you. i wasn't out of school quite as long as you were [one year, not four], but coming straight from undergrad isn't much of an advantage. in fact, it could be an advantage. some people come straight from undergrad to law school when they're really burnt out on school. if you've worked for a couple years and now feel ready to come back, you'll be in a good, fresh mindset--which is everything when starting your 1L year.
don't worry about being rusty with studying. law school is completely different from undergrad. it's a different kind of class, a different kind of reading, and a different kind of school experience. you will have a massive amount of adjusting to do to figure out how you best internalize law school information--but so will everyone else, whether they're three months out of undergrad or thirty years out of undergrad. i'm glad i took that time off after undergrad to work...i got some interesting experience, and i came to law school with a fresher, happier mindset than i would have had i gone on straight from undergrad.
choosing a law school
my personal experience in choosing a law school was atypical. at the time i was choosing a school, i was in a serious relationship with a person in St. Louis. i wanted to be near him, but i wanted to go to a law school where i'd have a good time [even if the relationship went south], i'd get a good education, and be able to easily move somewhere else in the midwest if i wanted to. so, Wash U was the only school i applied to, and that's where i went. it turned out to be a great decision...i love the school, i'm still glad i went there even though the relationship ended fall semester of my 2L year, and i got a great job in Chicago for after graduation. that's my background on this issue.
what's my suggestion? figure out what's most important to you. if you really want to work public interest, go somewhere where you'll take out the least loans, or even no loans at all. if you have a specific geographic area in mind, look for schools there. if you don't yet have a specific city in mind, then pick a school where you'd enjoy living for three years, but be mindful that the school is well enough regarded in places that you're interested in that you can get your foot in the door. if you plan on working a high-paying job at a large firm, especially if you're not wedded to any specific geographic area, it is probably best to go to a top-tier school if you can get into it, and pay the loans down.
whether you're planning on public interest or private sector, geography is a key consideration. unless you're planning on working in one of those really huge markets that are so popular that you don't need geographic connections to work there [New York, DC...], consider seriously going to law school in your chosen market if you're intent on working there. in small to medium markets, employers are extremely concerned about your local connections, and about whether you're actually going to stay in the market for the long haul. so, if you're dead set on a small to medium market, prove your dedication now, and pick a law school there.
[ineedhelp, or anyone else...i'm currently a 3L at Wash U, so if you have specific questions about it feel free to email me at superherogirl@gmail.com, and i'll be glad to respond!]
books
it's a tradeoff between laziness and penny-pinching. the old editions are mostly like the new ones, but not exactly. if you get the old edition, you'll have to compare it with someone who has the new one, get the different page numbers, and search for the new cases that were put in the book. some books there's very little difference; some books, especially in fields where the law changes a lot, there's a ton. 1L books are probably less likely than most to have major differences, but there are no guarantees.
what i usually do for books is order them online. you can get them significantly cheaper from places like amazon and half.com than you can from the bookstore, even if your bookstore sells used books. i never get anything but the most recent edition, because i'm not willing to take the time to compare them to the old editions to see what's different. but, i can usually get a good deal on the newest one if i shop online. it's still pricey, but i feel it's justifiable.
the summer before law school
as far as the summer before law school, Butterflyfish is correct--you don't need a law job the summer before law school. in fact, it's probably better not to have a law job that summer, because all you'll be doing in law school is law. take a break from it, since you'll be doing law all year from there on out, between law school and summer jobs in legal workplaces. the summer before law school i worked the same two jobs i'd been doing through my year off after undergrad. i was working part-time barcoding books in a library, and i was working full-time waitressing. the barcoding job was mind-numbing, and i hated it, but i needed the money and it was an easy job at a library i had been working in since my second year of undergrad. the waitressing was much better...it was something i knew i'd never be able to try again, and something i had always wanted to try once. that's my suggestion...if there's some kind of summer job you can do for a short period of time before you start law school, something you've never done and always wanted to try, do it. it doesn't have to be anything taxing or academic...specifically, it's probably better for it not to be, so you can come to law school as relaxed and clear-headed as possible.
on coming back to school, after working
to the person who was wondering what it would be like to be working and then coming back to law school--don't worry about the college kids being ahead of you. i wasn't out of school quite as long as you were [one year, not four], but coming straight from undergrad isn't much of an advantage. in fact, it could be an advantage. some people come straight from undergrad to law school when they're really burnt out on school. if you've worked for a couple years and now feel ready to come back, you'll be in a good, fresh mindset--which is everything when starting your 1L year.
don't worry about being rusty with studying. law school is completely different from undergrad. it's a different kind of class, a different kind of reading, and a different kind of school experience. you will have a massive amount of adjusting to do to figure out how you best internalize law school information--but so will everyone else, whether they're three months out of undergrad or thirty years out of undergrad. i'm glad i took that time off after undergrad to work...i got some interesting experience, and i came to law school with a fresher, happier mindset than i would have had i gone on straight from undergrad.
choosing a law school
my personal experience in choosing a law school was atypical. at the time i was choosing a school, i was in a serious relationship with a person in St. Louis. i wanted to be near him, but i wanted to go to a law school where i'd have a good time [even if the relationship went south], i'd get a good education, and be able to easily move somewhere else in the midwest if i wanted to. so, Wash U was the only school i applied to, and that's where i went. it turned out to be a great decision...i love the school, i'm still glad i went there even though the relationship ended fall semester of my 2L year, and i got a great job in Chicago for after graduation. that's my background on this issue.
what's my suggestion? figure out what's most important to you. if you really want to work public interest, go somewhere where you'll take out the least loans, or even no loans at all. if you have a specific geographic area in mind, look for schools there. if you don't yet have a specific city in mind, then pick a school where you'd enjoy living for three years, but be mindful that the school is well enough regarded in places that you're interested in that you can get your foot in the door. if you plan on working a high-paying job at a large firm, especially if you're not wedded to any specific geographic area, it is probably best to go to a top-tier school if you can get into it, and pay the loans down.
whether you're planning on public interest or private sector, geography is a key consideration. unless you're planning on working in one of those really huge markets that are so popular that you don't need geographic connections to work there [New York, DC...], consider seriously going to law school in your chosen market if you're intent on working there. in small to medium markets, employers are extremely concerned about your local connections, and about whether you're actually going to stay in the market for the long haul. so, if you're dead set on a small to medium market, prove your dedication now, and pick a law school there.
[ineedhelp, or anyone else...i'm currently a 3L at Wash U, so if you have specific questions about it feel free to email me at superherogirl@gmail.com, and i'll be glad to respond!]
books
it's a tradeoff between laziness and penny-pinching. the old editions are mostly like the new ones, but not exactly. if you get the old edition, you'll have to compare it with someone who has the new one, get the different page numbers, and search for the new cases that were put in the book. some books there's very little difference; some books, especially in fields where the law changes a lot, there's a ton. 1L books are probably less likely than most to have major differences, but there are no guarantees.
what i usually do for books is order them online. you can get them significantly cheaper from places like amazon and half.com than you can from the bookstore, even if your bookstore sells used books. i never get anything but the most recent edition, because i'm not willing to take the time to compare them to the old editions to see what's different. but, i can usually get a good deal on the newest one if i shop online. it's still pricey, but i feel it's justifiable.
Saturday, March 08, 2008
Summer before law school
From Prue: what should i be doing the the summer between undergrad graduation and starting law school? i am finishing an engineering degree, and to be honest i'm a little burnt out. what i really want to do is be lazy and work in a mindless job, like starbucks. how important is it to get a summer job (or nonpaying one) the summer before law school?
You absolutely do not need a legal job the summer before law school. Where do these ideas come from anyway? I saw another comment about getting a legal summer job prior to law school. No one expects that of you and I doubt it provides that much of an edge in the end.
1L summer is an entirely different story.
But for the summer before law school, take a pottery class or travel someplace awesome or read some great non-fiction. It'll give you at least as much to talk about in an interview than working as a glorified file clerk somewhere. No one ever asks about that summer. In fact, I was a teacher and no one ever asks about the six summers I had off during that career, though I occasionally work in some interesting stories.
Anyway, in my humble opinion, nothing wrong with working at Starbucks for the summer. Just don't put it on the resume unless you have no other work experience . . . ever. Funny thing about legal resumes: my ten working years prior to law school is about three lines, and will eventually be one. As you go through school and do internships and summer jobs, those experiences become what matters. Until you've worked a few years, then those experiences are what matters... etc., etc., etc.
What I did: I worked less than part-time teaching LSAT classes, I played with my son, and I prepped.
Other WIWHK folks? What did you do?
You absolutely do not need a legal job the summer before law school. Where do these ideas come from anyway? I saw another comment about getting a legal summer job prior to law school. No one expects that of you and I doubt it provides that much of an edge in the end.
1L summer is an entirely different story.
But for the summer before law school, take a pottery class or travel someplace awesome or read some great non-fiction. It'll give you at least as much to talk about in an interview than working as a glorified file clerk somewhere. No one ever asks about that summer. In fact, I was a teacher and no one ever asks about the six summers I had off during that career, though I occasionally work in some interesting stories.
Anyway, in my humble opinion, nothing wrong with working at Starbucks for the summer. Just don't put it on the resume unless you have no other work experience . . . ever. Funny thing about legal resumes: my ten working years prior to law school is about three lines, and will eventually be one. As you go through school and do internships and summer jobs, those experiences become what matters. Until you've worked a few years, then those experiences are what matters... etc., etc., etc.
What I did: I worked less than part-time teaching LSAT classes, I played with my son, and I prepped.
Other WIWHK folks? What did you do?
Saturday, February 23, 2008
Hey 1Ls! Hey Pre-Ls!
Hey 1Ls!
You've gotten one semester under your belt. You're either happy with your grades or looking to improve. You've sort of got the hang of things but still find yourself spending too much time on legal skills.
We get it. We've been there.
Any burning questions?
Hey Pre-Ls!
Acceptances are rolling in. Or not. Or you're thinking of applying this year.
Any requests for posts?
You've gotten one semester under your belt. You're either happy with your grades or looking to improve. You've sort of got the hang of things but still find yourself spending too much time on legal skills.
We get it. We've been there.
Any burning questions?
Hey Pre-Ls!
Acceptances are rolling in. Or not. Or you're thinking of applying this year.
Any requests for posts?
Sunday, February 17, 2008
1L summer: do anything, as long as it's legal.
grades are back, resumes are in shiny, working order, and it's time to hunt for that 1L summer position. the central idea of the 1L summer position hunt is as follows--it doesn't matter what you do, as long as it's something legal. this includes firm jobs, public interest jobs, summer school, and study abroad. take your pick, as long as it has something to do with the law.
if you know what field you want to be in and can't seem to find a job in that field yet, don't despair. it won't hinder your ability to get a job in your chosen field next summer. the only real constraint i suggest is that if you're planning on going anywhere but an enormous market like New York or Washington, DC...do whatever you can to be in that market of your choice over the summer. if you want to go to a huge city, it's not such a big deal, because they assume everyone wants to move to the big city whether you have local ties or not.
but, if you know you want to make your career in a specific medium- to small-size city, local ties are key. if you have family there, if you grew up there, that's good. but, whether you do or not, you need to start making ties to the legal community and showing your desire to work in that market. get a summer position there if at all possible. if you don't get a position, you're not definitely out of luck if you want to work there your 2L summer...but you may be behind if you're vying for a position against someone who did work in that town the previous summer. so, it's better to lay your foundation now if you can.
if you have had a law-related job before law school, that's no substitute for having a law-related job your 1L summer. law-related jobs before law school are valuable because they put you in the position to see what happens in legal workplaces and make a far more educated decision about whether you want to be in law school in the first place. however, you are not a lawyer, or even a law student, in these pre-law school jobs. you do not get substantive legal work of the type that a law student or lawyer would get--or, at least, you should not, because that would be malpractice.
you also don't get substantive legal work during your first year of law school...you read cases, get grilled by your professors, and write papers for legal writing. you don't have real clients. you don't have the context of a real case. you learn crucial case analysis skills your first year of law school, but that's only a small slice of legal work. you need to actually work for a lawyer, interact with clients, and work in a legal environment as a legal professional. the only law school experience that gives you this is clinical work--something that first years just don't get.
if you want to travel during the summer, try finding some kind of international internship. often law schools or public interest organizations will provide opportunities to do public interest legal work abroad. these programs are generally available to first-year law students, and first-years have a great chance of getting to do them because so many second years plan to stay in the states and do jobs that will hopefully lead to a permanent position after third year. that way, you'll be able to spend a lot of time out of the country...but still experience having clients, and be able to show a commitment to doing legal work come next fall, when interviewers will be asking about your legal experience.
if you can't find any legal job that you are interested in, your other option is to do summer school, either at your institution or through a study abroad program. i don't recommend this if there's any way you can work in a legal office, because [as i've already mentioned] law school and law practice are so different. but, you'll still be further ahead if you take summer legal classes than you will be if you don't do anything legal at all over the summer. you need to make it clear that you want to devote your life to legal work, and taking law classes over the summer still shows that you're interested in learning as much as you can about the field. it's not the same as having clients, but it's still pertinent to the field and you can make convincing arguments about how your summer study will make you a better legal intern at your 2L summer job.
in short...make sure you're doing something this summer that pertains to the law. it shows dedication to the field, and you'll gain valuable experience. it doesn't have to be in the legal subfield in which you want to practice forever; as long as what you're thinking of doing interests you, go for it. don't worry about getting pigeonholed into the field where your 1L job is; my 1L summer job was nothing like my 2L job, and most people i know can say the same.
almost every 1L does something legal their first summer, either a legal job or summer school--the opportunities are out there, and you will be at a distinct disadvantage if you don't seize one of them and are up for a 2L summer job against someone who did gain legal experience that summer.
if you know what field you want to be in and can't seem to find a job in that field yet, don't despair. it won't hinder your ability to get a job in your chosen field next summer. the only real constraint i suggest is that if you're planning on going anywhere but an enormous market like New York or Washington, DC...do whatever you can to be in that market of your choice over the summer. if you want to go to a huge city, it's not such a big deal, because they assume everyone wants to move to the big city whether you have local ties or not.
but, if you know you want to make your career in a specific medium- to small-size city, local ties are key. if you have family there, if you grew up there, that's good. but, whether you do or not, you need to start making ties to the legal community and showing your desire to work in that market. get a summer position there if at all possible. if you don't get a position, you're not definitely out of luck if you want to work there your 2L summer...but you may be behind if you're vying for a position against someone who did work in that town the previous summer. so, it's better to lay your foundation now if you can.
if you have had a law-related job before law school, that's no substitute for having a law-related job your 1L summer. law-related jobs before law school are valuable because they put you in the position to see what happens in legal workplaces and make a far more educated decision about whether you want to be in law school in the first place. however, you are not a lawyer, or even a law student, in these pre-law school jobs. you do not get substantive legal work of the type that a law student or lawyer would get--or, at least, you should not, because that would be malpractice.
you also don't get substantive legal work during your first year of law school...you read cases, get grilled by your professors, and write papers for legal writing. you don't have real clients. you don't have the context of a real case. you learn crucial case analysis skills your first year of law school, but that's only a small slice of legal work. you need to actually work for a lawyer, interact with clients, and work in a legal environment as a legal professional. the only law school experience that gives you this is clinical work--something that first years just don't get.
if you want to travel during the summer, try finding some kind of international internship. often law schools or public interest organizations will provide opportunities to do public interest legal work abroad. these programs are generally available to first-year law students, and first-years have a great chance of getting to do them because so many second years plan to stay in the states and do jobs that will hopefully lead to a permanent position after third year. that way, you'll be able to spend a lot of time out of the country...but still experience having clients, and be able to show a commitment to doing legal work come next fall, when interviewers will be asking about your legal experience.
if you can't find any legal job that you are interested in, your other option is to do summer school, either at your institution or through a study abroad program. i don't recommend this if there's any way you can work in a legal office, because [as i've already mentioned] law school and law practice are so different. but, you'll still be further ahead if you take summer legal classes than you will be if you don't do anything legal at all over the summer. you need to make it clear that you want to devote your life to legal work, and taking law classes over the summer still shows that you're interested in learning as much as you can about the field. it's not the same as having clients, but it's still pertinent to the field and you can make convincing arguments about how your summer study will make you a better legal intern at your 2L summer job.
in short...make sure you're doing something this summer that pertains to the law. it shows dedication to the field, and you'll gain valuable experience. it doesn't have to be in the legal subfield in which you want to practice forever; as long as what you're thinking of doing interests you, go for it. don't worry about getting pigeonholed into the field where your 1L job is; my 1L summer job was nothing like my 2L job, and most people i know can say the same.
almost every 1L does something legal their first summer, either a legal job or summer school--the opportunities are out there, and you will be at a distinct disadvantage if you don't seize one of them and are up for a 2L summer job against someone who did gain legal experience that summer.
Saturday, February 09, 2008
Don't let this happen to you
I was reading a post on a law student blog and the author, in her second semester of law school, was wondering why several of her otherwise perfectly normal classmates have suddenly become asshats.
Little did she know its a common disorder seen among the law student population.
Sudden Asshat Syndrome: afflicts otherwise ok but insecure law students who keep their heads down and work hard first semester and don't draw attention to themselves. Until... they get a couple of good grades and decide what they have to say is more important than what other people have to say.
Symptoms:
1) Interrupting professor to correct a misstatement about the facts. Because its mission critical to recall exactly how many feet Mrs. Palzgraff was from the explosion.
2) Raising hand to tell rambling personal stories only tangentially related to anything. Unless it begins, "This one time, at band camp" AND ends with the blue-haired professor passing out from shock, skip it.
3) Spinnging irrelevant hypotheticals: Ok, so I get why he gets the fox, but what if it was a beaver? And instead of shooting it, he clubbed it to death? Would that make a difference?
Cure: none. Because even future bad grades tend not to make them shut up. Once the beast is loosed, its never going back in the cage.
Remedial measures: ear plugs.
Little did she know its a common disorder seen among the law student population.
Sudden Asshat Syndrome: afflicts otherwise ok but insecure law students who keep their heads down and work hard first semester and don't draw attention to themselves. Until... they get a couple of good grades and decide what they have to say is more important than what other people have to say.
Symptoms:
1) Interrupting professor to correct a misstatement about the facts. Because its mission critical to recall exactly how many feet Mrs. Palzgraff was from the explosion.
2) Raising hand to tell rambling personal stories only tangentially related to anything. Unless it begins, "This one time, at band camp" AND ends with the blue-haired professor passing out from shock, skip it.
3) Spinnging irrelevant hypotheticals: Ok, so I get why he gets the fox, but what if it was a beaver? And instead of shooting it, he clubbed it to death? Would that make a difference?
Cure: none. Because even future bad grades tend not to make them shut up. Once the beast is loosed, its never going back in the cage.
Remedial measures: ear plugs.
Monday, February 04, 2008
Do bar passage rates mean anything?
A reader asks: I have heard from several sources, none of which actually have been to law school, that once a student has passed the bar exam, the caliber of school he/she attended doesn't really matter. What are your ideas on this (and I'm not referring to Harvard or Yale as options)?
From what I understand, the bar exam thing you heard is crap. C-r-a-p crap, and this is coming from someone who would desparately wish that were true because I go to a low tier school. (I got into a Tier 1 school... deep into the list, but Tier 1 all the same and didn't go because of, well... read the blog... ugh I hate the need to justify my choices but law school can make you a prestige whore).
Nearly everyone does a commercial bar prep course (read: BarBri) beause law school does nothing to prepare you for the bar. My school has like a 92% pass rate -- that's not gonna help me get a damn job. Most schools are between 79-95% for first time takers. So if that theory were true, than once you passed the bar, 79-95% of law school graduates would have no trouble finding work in their field. And that just ain't true!!!!
Maybe the "advice" you heard could be better phrased "Fewer people care what law school you went to after you've worked your first job for a few years."
There is a HUGE difference. Because the law school often opens the door to that first job. Many on my blogroll passed the bar but are doing jobs as contract attorneys reviewing documents in a law firm basement with no benefits and half the starting salary of their "peers" who went to better schools and/or had better connections and/or had better grades. This does not "count" as a job to BigLaw firms, or indeed many jobs where people eventually want to work.
So if what you want is the law firm job, starting salary 145k, expecting to work 80 hours a week in a big city market ... go to the highest ranked school you get into and get the best grades you can. EDITED TO ADD: assuming the "highest ranked" school is pretty highly ranked. Beyond the scope of this post to discuss ranking and job prospects in more detail. see comments and future posts.
If that's NOT what you want -- and realistically, its something only available to a small fraction of law grads -- go where you will be happy. Go to the school with the market in which you want to work, do lots of internships and network your ass off to get the legal job of your dreams.
From what I understand, the bar exam thing you heard is crap. C-r-a-p crap, and this is coming from someone who would desparately wish that were true because I go to a low tier school. (I got into a Tier 1 school... deep into the list, but Tier 1 all the same and didn't go because of, well... read the blog... ugh I hate the need to justify my choices but law school can make you a prestige whore).
Nearly everyone does a commercial bar prep course (read: BarBri) beause law school does nothing to prepare you for the bar. My school has like a 92% pass rate -- that's not gonna help me get a damn job. Most schools are between 79-95% for first time takers. So if that theory were true, than once you passed the bar, 79-95% of law school graduates would have no trouble finding work in their field. And that just ain't true!!!!
Maybe the "advice" you heard could be better phrased "Fewer people care what law school you went to after you've worked your first job for a few years."
There is a HUGE difference. Because the law school often opens the door to that first job. Many on my blogroll passed the bar but are doing jobs as contract attorneys reviewing documents in a law firm basement with no benefits and half the starting salary of their "peers" who went to better schools and/or had better connections and/or had better grades. This does not "count" as a job to BigLaw firms, or indeed many jobs where people eventually want to work.
So if what you want is the law firm job, starting salary 145k, expecting to work 80 hours a week in a big city market ... go to the highest ranked school you get into and get the best grades you can. EDITED TO ADD: assuming the "highest ranked" school is pretty highly ranked. Beyond the scope of this post to discuss ranking and job prospects in more detail. see comments and future posts.
If that's NOT what you want -- and realistically, its something only available to a small fraction of law grads -- go where you will be happy. Go to the school with the market in which you want to work, do lots of internships and network your ass off to get the legal job of your dreams.
Sunday, January 27, 2008
Go ahead, call me a tool / gunner / d-bag. . .
Law school groupie asks: How difficult is the reading at first? One persons advice was to start reading Hemingway to prepare your brain. I also kind of wonder how much the stress can get to a person. Basically, I'm afraid of crying myself to sleep a lot of nights.
I don't know about Hemingway -- I didn't much care for Old Man and the Sea.
But the summer before law school, I was one of those people who did some "prep."
(Let the name-calling begin).
Ok, if you're all done, hear me out.
I had no idea as to what to expect from law school. I had no friends who had been to law school. I knew no lawyers. I knew no paralegals. I had never been involved in a lawsuit in any way. I was older. I had a child and my husband was overseas and I was terrified.
So I took control in the only way I knew how -- I started reading. I read law student blogs, I read Law School Confidential (mostly useless -- I still don't highlight for book briefing and color coding makes me nauseous) and Planet Law School (negative but pointed me to other books) and Getting to Maybe (very useless).
I didn't do the whole prep regimen recommended by Planet Law School, but I did like the premise -- read up on some substantive law before school starts so it doesn't sound totally new and alien; get a head start on learning the black letter law so when you're given a quagmire of a reading assignment, you sort of have an idea how you'll come out.
Also, he recommended that once school starts, do practice exams early and often, which is great advice.
So the summer before law school, I read most of Aspen's Examples& Explanations on Torts by Glannon. I read some of the Contracts and Civ Pro E&E. I am glad I didn't read the Crim E&E because my prof kind of had his own black letter law, so I cannot attest to its usefulness.
Did it help? I honestly don't know. I had less time than my classmates to puzzle it all out, I had less time to devote to the study of law and to briefing cases (which I more or less abandoned early) and to spinning my wheels. I needed what I was doing to never be a waste of my precious time.
This blog is about what I wish I would have known. Having it to do over, I would have done the same thing regarding the prep. To this day I don't know how truly "helpful" it was to my grades or to my understanding, but I think it helped me manage the stress to feel I was somewhat in control.
I don't know about Hemingway -- I didn't much care for Old Man and the Sea.
But the summer before law school, I was one of those people who did some "prep."
(Let the name-calling begin).
Ok, if you're all done, hear me out.
I had no idea as to what to expect from law school. I had no friends who had been to law school. I knew no lawyers. I knew no paralegals. I had never been involved in a lawsuit in any way. I was older. I had a child and my husband was overseas and I was terrified.
So I took control in the only way I knew how -- I started reading. I read law student blogs, I read Law School Confidential (mostly useless -- I still don't highlight for book briefing and color coding makes me nauseous) and Planet Law School (negative but pointed me to other books) and Getting to Maybe (very useless).
I didn't do the whole prep regimen recommended by Planet Law School, but I did like the premise -- read up on some substantive law before school starts so it doesn't sound totally new and alien; get a head start on learning the black letter law so when you're given a quagmire of a reading assignment, you sort of have an idea how you'll come out.
Also, he recommended that once school starts, do practice exams early and often, which is great advice.
So the summer before law school, I read most of Aspen's Examples& Explanations on Torts by Glannon. I read some of the Contracts and Civ Pro E&E. I am glad I didn't read the Crim E&E because my prof kind of had his own black letter law, so I cannot attest to its usefulness.
Did it help? I honestly don't know. I had less time than my classmates to puzzle it all out, I had less time to devote to the study of law and to briefing cases (which I more or less abandoned early) and to spinning my wheels. I needed what I was doing to never be a waste of my precious time.
This blog is about what I wish I would have known. Having it to do over, I would have done the same thing regarding the prep. To this day I don't know how truly "helpful" it was to my grades or to my understanding, but I think it helped me manage the stress to feel I was somewhat in control.
Saturday, January 12, 2008
Burning questions
Excerpts from recent reader email thinking about going to law school:
Female reader asks: I am newly married, and I am concerned about what kind of stress being a student again would put on my marriage . . . I guess what I am asking is, how do you juggle it all? What should a 1L expect as far as work load? Is it the equivalent of an 8hr day? 10hr day? or longer?
Yes, its stressful on a marriage. I did the first half of 1L with a kid here and a husband overseas. Things didn't get truly hard until he came back! Its an adjustment. The thing about law school, especially first year, is that its kind of all-consuming -- in both a good and bad way. Its all you want to do, think about, talk about. And you'll want him to understand it too, and he'll think its like any other grad program. And its not. I've got a Masters. Law school is different.
At no law school I know do you have control over your first year schedule. Expect it to be 5 days a week and run from 8 til 4 or 9-5. You'll get crazy little breaks in between. Like college, Torts three days a week, 90 minutes a class, followed by an hour break, followed by Crim twice a week, etc. If you maximize those breaks -- like you disappear into the law library and work, you can avoid bringing a lot home. Most people don't maximize those breaks; they socialize over a long lunch, etc.
Then have to go home and read 60 pages by the next day. And 60 pages of law reading is just NOT the same as 60 pages of Harry Potter, or even a college text. At least at first. (Well, it'll never be Harry Potter, but it gets easier).
Short answer, expect 8-10 hour day plus a full weekend day (or two half days), more at exam time. Some would say I am underplaying it -- I know some who did 12 hour weekdays plus a weekend day. I know others who do it in a lot less.
And grades don't necessarily correlate directly to the hours spent.
I try to be home in time to spend a few hours with my son and husband. I either go to bed early and wake up early to read, or I read after the "boys" are in bed.
With a long commute, there are study aids on CD you can listen to in your car. I don't know how good they are, but read other posts in this blog, other law student blogs and ask around online. Law students are very helpful ... when they're not in your class at a competitive school.
Any others from the wishiwouldhaveknown crew care to chime in? edit the post and add to it, or do so in the comments.
Female reader asks: I am newly married, and I am concerned about what kind of stress being a student again would put on my marriage . . . I guess what I am asking is, how do you juggle it all? What should a 1L expect as far as work load? Is it the equivalent of an 8hr day? 10hr day? or longer?
Yes, its stressful on a marriage. I did the first half of 1L with a kid here and a husband overseas. Things didn't get truly hard until he came back! Its an adjustment. The thing about law school, especially first year, is that its kind of all-consuming -- in both a good and bad way. Its all you want to do, think about, talk about. And you'll want him to understand it too, and he'll think its like any other grad program. And its not. I've got a Masters. Law school is different.
At no law school I know do you have control over your first year schedule. Expect it to be 5 days a week and run from 8 til 4 or 9-5. You'll get crazy little breaks in between. Like college, Torts three days a week, 90 minutes a class, followed by an hour break, followed by Crim twice a week, etc. If you maximize those breaks -- like you disappear into the law library and work, you can avoid bringing a lot home. Most people don't maximize those breaks; they socialize over a long lunch, etc.
Then have to go home and read 60 pages by the next day. And 60 pages of law reading is just NOT the same as 60 pages of Harry Potter, or even a college text. At least at first. (Well, it'll never be Harry Potter, but it gets easier).
Short answer, expect 8-10 hour day plus a full weekend day (or two half days), more at exam time. Some would say I am underplaying it -- I know some who did 12 hour weekdays plus a weekend day. I know others who do it in a lot less.
And grades don't necessarily correlate directly to the hours spent.
I try to be home in time to spend a few hours with my son and husband. I either go to bed early and wake up early to read, or I read after the "boys" are in bed.
With a long commute, there are study aids on CD you can listen to in your car. I don't know how good they are, but read other posts in this blog, other law student blogs and ask around online. Law students are very helpful ... when they're not in your class at a competitive school.
Any others from the wishiwouldhaveknown crew care to chime in? edit the post and add to it, or do so in the comments.
Thursday, January 03, 2008
Bookstore Ripoff
If you haven't already figured out that most university bookstores charge outrageous prices for law books then hopefully this blog post will save you a few bucks in the future.
The internet is your best friend when it comes to buying books for law school. I have found Barnes and Noble to be the best deal, invest in a $25.00 yearly membership and you will save hundreds over the course of the year just buying your law books alone (plus you also get discounts on fun books for reading on that well deserved summer vacation). Example: 2 casebooks for the upcoming Spring semester were going to cost me $260.00 at the university bookstore, the same 2 casebooks (brand new) cost me $175 on Barnes and Noble (after my membership discount). That left me with enough cash to buy commerical outlines to go with those 2 classes and still come out at only $211 total. Pretty good deal in my opinion!
Amazon and Half.com are other good places to check for law school books. Sometimes you do get unlucky and end up having to go to the bookstore, but for the most part I have been pretty lucky in ordering all of mine online and saving about $80-100 each semester.
Good luck to everyone starting their 2nd semesters and enjoy what's left of the WAY too short break!!!
The internet is your best friend when it comes to buying books for law school. I have found Barnes and Noble to be the best deal, invest in a $25.00 yearly membership and you will save hundreds over the course of the year just buying your law books alone (plus you also get discounts on fun books for reading on that well deserved summer vacation). Example: 2 casebooks for the upcoming Spring semester were going to cost me $260.00 at the university bookstore, the same 2 casebooks (brand new) cost me $175 on Barnes and Noble (after my membership discount). That left me with enough cash to buy commerical outlines to go with those 2 classes and still come out at only $211 total. Pretty good deal in my opinion!
Amazon and Half.com are other good places to check for law school books. Sometimes you do get unlucky and end up having to go to the bookstore, but for the most part I have been pretty lucky in ordering all of mine online and saving about $80-100 each semester.
Good luck to everyone starting their 2nd semesters and enjoy what's left of the WAY too short break!!!
Wednesday, January 02, 2008
Hanging in there?
Hey 1Ls,
Hope you had a great break and New Year. Some of you may be back to class this week. More will be back to class next week.
But who gives a sh*t, right? You don't yet have the one thing you want more than anything else right now: your damn grades.
Sure, maybe your professor actually graded everything already (hahahhahahha *wipes tear*), but the administration has been snowboarding since three days before Christmas, so nothing has been posted. Today, they might be back at work. Maybe.
But you probably haven't gotten any grades yet... and that won't change soon, no matter how many times you hit refresh on the browser.
Its ok to be a little anxious about these grades.
But try not to freak out too much.
Hope you had a great break and New Year. Some of you may be back to class this week. More will be back to class next week.
But who gives a sh*t, right? You don't yet have the one thing you want more than anything else right now: your damn grades.
Sure, maybe your professor actually graded everything already (hahahhahahha *wipes tear*), but the administration has been snowboarding since three days before Christmas, so nothing has been posted. Today, they might be back at work. Maybe.
But you probably haven't gotten any grades yet... and that won't change soon, no matter how many times you hit refresh on the browser.
Its ok to be a little anxious about these grades.
But try not to freak out too much.
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